*** UPDATE ***
Last night, DH asked if I could send him a 'financial report' every month. This is what he got today: wonder if it'll help?
YAY, FEEDBACK!!! I appreciate everyone taking the time to read my rants and then go through the effort of organizing and thoughtfully sharing your input. And yes, I am being serious...
On a side note: apparently my rants about DH are even more popular than the ones about StarCrooks, as yesterday was the new biggest ever for pages viewed. Way to Rant, TinaP!!!
Since I got so many comments, questions, and suggestions, I wanted to place my response in a new post in hopes that everyone would be able to follow-along and offer more help if possible.
"LuxLiving Says: My first thoughts are to save this as a last resort measure. "
Oh yea, this is definitely a last resort measure. I was even leery of putting it on the blog since there are thoughts DH is reading this as we 'speak'. But, I promised I wouldn't censor myself, so I laid it out there!
"LuxLiving Says: ... Once he gets a taste that you're trying to cover all the bases don't you think he'll come around?"
Well, I've tried that to an extent. He's seen the spread sheet & therefore knows that there's money left over after I save for the quarterly, semi-annual, and annual bills (plus holidays & gifts). It's what to do with the 1100 leftover that's causing issues: I have no retirement plan at work so I'd like to fund a Roth, plus agressively pay down existing debt after creating a baby EF. It's not that DH is against any of these things, but he has no qualms about using that money for something tangible in the here & now. Retirement to him isn't tangible, and he doesn't want to pay the debt aggresively. His view is "it'll get taken care of eventually". My view is: add up the car, the house, and what we pay each month in other debts, you get over $1000. If we could pay of our debts and keep our current income, we could have over $2000 each month to save and enjoy. But that's in the future, it's not now and it's not tangible.
"yummy64 Says: Slowly make the savings a bill - it comes out of the account automattically when you are paid. Money sitting around in accounts is money to be spent - see it spend it..."
Actually, we already have a 'savings bill'. $150 goes out the 3rd and 18th of every month (3 days after I get paid) to cover the quarterly, semi-annual, and annual bills (plus holidays & gifts). Plus I'm sending $200/wk to the online savings account. It's the money sitting in savings that is so tempting to DH. We have themoney, it's right there 'not being used', so why not use it to buy X?
"Lynda Says: ... It's easier to not spend money when you feel like you are getting something of value for your efforts. Maybe seeing how one level of savings has him working until 60+ and another has you both free and clear and done with work in his 40's would be a way to become more united on your savings goals...."
This ties back to what I mentioned earlier: retirement isn't tangible to DH and therefore I don't think he finds planning and saving for it as emotionally rewarding as, well, stuff.
"PRICEPLUS Says: Tina, I like the idea of making savings a bill. It is sooooo important to save before kiddies come around!"
Savings bill (1100 per month) is already done. It's just that he wants to tap into it whenever something fun/new comes along. As for kiddies, we currently don't intend on having any. We both like kids and are very good with them, but DH's very open about the fact that he's selfish when it comes to both me (i.e. not wanting to share his time with me) and money. He's even broughtup the V word...
"PRICEPLUS Says: ... The "MY" money and "YOUR" money idea is fine if you decided it before marriage! You and hubby are a team and the operative word is "OUR" money...."
It always has been 'our' money, but so far that's going over like a turd in a punch bowl. Pardon the phrase, but the picture is clear.
"PRICEPLUS Says: ... The Mine and Yours gambit should only be used when the financial house is teetering and there is no other choice. An allowance of mad money should be set aside for both of you and the rest into savings or reducing debt!..."
DH already gets an allowance, as do I. His allowance is 11.90% of the household income, mine is 9.52%. It's what to do with money above and beyond, the actual monthly surplus, that's causing friction.
"frugalmomof1 Says: ...Have you showed him the newly formatted budget? When he sees that your surplus is nearly 10x's more than his, maybe his tune will change."
I haven't shown him the newly formatted budget b/c I'm not sure if it's appropriate. It really does make it look like my money versus his money, as opposed to 'our' money, which I'm trying to avoid if at all possible.
"Broken Arrow Says: ... Having said that, if he is comfortable with it, and if he's willing to agree with it, the simplest solution is to for you to give him a (percentage) cash allowance every pay period. This is his "car gas/play money". In return, he doesn't have to worry about any bills or debts anymore, provided that he's not going to push for more money. Oh, and he would also have to surrender his paychecks to you...."
We've been doing this for about 2 years now, actually. To give you a picture of what it was like before I took over the finances: a year and a half ago DH was carrying 2 check advances and owed his sister for a title loan on her car. I managed to wipe those out in a few months, and put him on an allowance. He has no car payment, gas bill, or cell bill as all those are covered by work. His allowance is truly fun money...
"Broken Arrow Says: ... Specifically, we split all the bills down to whatever we knew we could handle."
Sadly, the bills are all in my name b/c DH has/had bad accounts at all the major utilities. Most have been taken care of by now, but the utilities were established in my name long before he could get accounts.
"janh Says: ...After the accounts build up, would you have to remind him that it is for a specific thing or would he want to spend it on something else? I guess I wonder this cos this is my DS to a "T." I think he is beginning to come around and negotiate more for things they each want--him a toy, her saving for something..."
Unfortunately, that's the difficulty. DH doesn't want to save for a specific thing. 'The money is right there in savings, why not just use it: that's what money's for, right?'. Last night he wanted to research what it would cost to go to one of the Racing Experience schools at a NASCAR track (it's actually less than we thought, but prices range from $200-5k!!!). I told him that if it's what he wants we'll save up for it, just give me 6 months and I can make it happen. We could even make that his every-event present for 2007 and go big on it. First thing he said is: "Why not just use my tax refund? That would cover most of it, and we can do the taxes in Feruary and get the money more quickly!"
"pjmama Says: ... Make sure you tell him why you feel it is so important, and perhaps he will come around."
I don't know if he will come around: I'm thinking of future stability and paying past debt, and he's very much in the here and now. =/
"baselle Says: ... I think you'll have to make your debt reduction, savings goals, and emergency fund replenishment additional line items in your budget and rebalance your individual budgets so that each of you will have about 10-15% discretionary."
Well, we do already have discretionary budget, and we've alraedy talked about what our tolerances are for an EF (which was a nice discussion, very adult and honest and all that jazz). Debt reduction is the big issue: he doens't see the point. When I told him I could pay the car off in 2 years and save 6k in interest he actually said "But you don't need to think of it like that, think what you could do with that $300 every month". ACK!!!!
"baselle Says: ... The other chat you need to have is the 'want' chat. Ask DH to list out his Christmas list. Are they things that only he'll enjoy or things that you'll both enjoy? Will it possble that by waiting you'll get a better deal or that you can combine wants? If DH digs electronics, that happens quite a bit. Ask DH how he (or you both) will use his wants..."
I've been telling him for abotu a year "put it on the list!", but he thinks I'm kidding! Sometimes it just feels like DH wants everything, all at once. Sometimes his desire for something passes, sometimes the desire passes after the purchase is made (like the canoe he's "wanted" for 20 years that's currently in the den).
"baselle Says: ... It sounds like he chaffing under the bit, perhaps feels a bit "whipped". Is he getting teased?"
Actually, DH tells anyone he can how good I am with our money, and freely admits he's better off with me taking care of it than he would be doing it himself. He just told me last night how proud he is of how I handle our finances. I don't get it!!! As for his friends: most of them come to us for loans b/c they 'know' we're in a position with some liquid cash on hand. No teasing that I'm aware of...
"LuckyRobin Says: ... Price--What is it they say, something about if you really want to catch flies, use a dead possum. I've seen that posted somewhere around here. "
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!! Needed that!
"LuxLiving Says: Tinapbeane - Here's the sentence I use (very nicely - not snidely) with The Hubster and my kids: "And how are you planning to pay for that?" WAIT... WAIT..... WAIT FOR IT.... 'Oh I hadn't even thought about THAT!" GEE Willikers Peeps!! I always wag my head about then!"
The response I've heard is something to the effect of "How can I pay for anything if you're the only one with the checkbook?"... Feels like DH is happy w/ how I handle finances when it gets bill collectors to stop calling him and when it reduces our overall debt-load, but unhappy with how I handle finances when it keeps him from buying what he wants when he wants it. Don't know if that's true or not, but that's how it feels.
"LuxLiving Says: ...Could you work with him on making a list of the things he wants? At some point you might be able to convince him that he can't have everything he wants. None of us can...we wouldn't have anywhere to put it all. Could you post a list on the frig "Hubby's Want List" with the numbers 1-5 already listed on it and no room on the paper for a number 6 or more? Tell him you'll help him save to get his wants fulfilled but if he comes up with more than 5 that something else will have to be crossed off the list...."
Like I said earlier, I don't think he believes me when I tell him "put it on the list!" And I do think it's a good idea (esp since it makes gift buying so much easier...), but at the same time DH's wants are running about 500-1500 a pop. I don't think I could afford to save for 5 of 'em!
"LuxLiving Says: ...We all have to learn to prioritize at some point, maybe this is a skill he hasn't quite yet mastered?..."
I dunno. He's parents are not well off and are very frugal in their own way. At the same time, he was the youngest and the only boy and got treated like an only child in a lot of ways. I think that's what hasn't been outgrown...
"LuxLiving Says: ...Once you've explained that there is no money left for play because all of these OTHER things have to be covered then it is easier for folks to understand why there are no $$'s today to play with...."
And that's part of the issue. After all current needs & obligations are meet there's 1k that burns a hold in DH's mental pocket. I want to use some of that for my retirement fund (he just set up his 401k at work, whereas my work doesn't offer one), and some to pay off debt. These apparently are in no way a priority for DH. At least, he doesn't act or speak like they are.
DH has even decided to use some of his allowance to got througha credit rehab program where you pay $100 and they promise X many points up in your score blah blah blah. It's a load of crap: you know this, and I know this, and I've told him this. But, I've also told him if that's what he wants to do with his allowance it's his money. My question is: Why not just pay your old debt? You owe the money, and we have money that I'm offering to use for that specific purpose?
This is where my confusion lies. DH says he wants to pay down our debt and not owe money to his parents or his Honda Card or the hospital or whatever. But he's not willing to see me send any more out the door to try and reach that goal, he wants the money here where it is in theory usable. My perspective, in contrast, is that since we owe X many people/companies money, our 'extra' $1000 per month is really ours right now, it belongs to the people we owe money to and the grown up thing to do is give it to them.
Again, I appreciate your time and feedback, and I welcome even more in this next round of Tina the Budget Bad-Guy.
Replies to Comments: Should I be the Budget Bad-Guy?
November 7th, 2006 at 03:48 pm
November 7th, 2006 at 04:09 pm 1162915755
I would only say that, in your name or not, if he doesn't want a particular service that you don't personally care for, you can just cancel it? For example, if you don't care about the cellphone or cable TV, and if he doesn't pay you for it, then you can just cancel it. That way, it still doesn't hurt you in any way, and he will only have himself to "blame".
Then again, I am divorced, so maybe strong arm tactics like that ultimately doesn't work.... (Then again again, he is a guy, and us guys are more concrete like that, not "That means you don't love me anymore!" kinda thing.)
November 7th, 2006 at 04:36 pm 1162917380
Now, as i look back, I realized how much money we wasted on collecting things. We still have them, but they are not that enjoyable any more.
Being out of debt feels much better than having "stuff"
November 7th, 2006 at 05:00 pm 1162918842
Well, net worth wise, it's not so bad though... especially for a married couple. You should've seen ours. Almost -200k. Her student loans alone were 120k. Mine was 40k. Bleack! And "DW" didn't sense anything was terribly wrong....
You don't have to answer this, but so long as your overall cash in-flow is in the healthy positives, I don't foresee too much problems though.
Well, here's hoping that your guy is a numbers guy....
November 7th, 2006 at 05:13 pm 1162919613
"Broken Arrow Says: Well, net worth wise, it's not so bad though... " if it weren't for the house, we'd be at -20k...
"Broken Arrow Says: You don't have to answer this, but so long as your overall cash in-flow is in the healthy positives, I don't foresee too much problems though. Well, here's hoping that your guy is a numbers guy.... " You're right, it shouldn't be a problem, but it is. There's $26,172.62 in debt on there that DH is sticking his head in the sand about, waiting for the 7 year limit and hoping some of it will drop off his credit report. And why? So he can get approved for a new credit card and financing on a motorcycle...
November 7th, 2006 at 05:21 pm 1162920068
You say you want to open an IRA - then I'd vote that you jump on it and get that going and right off the bat if you've a 1000.00 of free room then you'll have no problem getting the 333.00 a month in their to fully fund it for the year.
If he owes the hospital money or the ?Honda car/card? money then you don't really have 1000.00 to play with - you need to set up 50-100 a month to paying them off, don't you? You're right he owes then the adult thing is to pay.
I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Do you have line items for all the little things that bite you on the bum such as:
Hubby's Want List
The Mrs.'s Want List
Furnace/Plumbing Repair Savings
Appliance Replacement Savings
Driver's License Renewal Savings
Medical Savings
Dental Savings
Vision Savings
Pets - then you'll need a Veterinary Savings in your budget
Clothes
Holiday Travel
Car Tags
Car Maintenance and Repair
Car Replacement NEXT vehicle
Vacation Savings
Lawn Care Savings
Life Insurance Mr.
Life Insurance Mrs.
Office Supplies
Electronic Purchases
Tax Preparation
Haircuts
Exterminator
Car/s Tires
Car/s Battery
Postage
Subscriptions/Dues
Appliance/Furniture Repair/Replacement
Roof Replacement
Carpet Replacemetn
Paint
Entertainment
Dining Out
Petty Cash/Safe
LT Care Insurance Mr.
LT Care Insurance Mrs.
All of which are just some of the line items in our personal household budget, said list above which does not include the other things like Tithe, Emergency Fund, Grocery, Gasoline, Allowances, Utilities and Retirement accounts.
I think if you get some of these covered then he isn't going to be seeing a grand sitting around unused any more. YMMV and maybe not all of these will apply to you right now, but keep them in mind. In this list you'll find a bunch of things that get overlooked until the bill comes in the mail or the need jumps in front of you.
November 7th, 2006 at 05:52 pm 1162921923
NEED TO COVER: Hubby's Want List- hehehehe! really want me to list it all here? *g*
The Mrs.'s Want List - to be debt free!
Furnace/Plumbing Repair Savings - wood heat & free wood/DH plumbs (almost wrote plumps!*G*); after debt payment, this would fall under long term savings for parts
Appliance Replacement Savings - after debt payment, this would fall under long term savings
Roof Replacement - after debt payment, this would fall under long term savings
Exterminator - after debt payment, this would fall under long term savings
MOSTLY COVERED: Medical Savings - insurance is deducted from pay, doesn't get calculated into net income. goal: have EF cover deductibles
Dental Savings - insurance is deducted from pay, doesn't get calculated into net income. goal: have EF cover deductibles
Vision Savings - insurance is deducted from pay, doesn't get calculated into net income. goal: have EF cover deductibles
DONE: Life Insurance Mr./Mrs. - insurance is deducted from pay and doesn't get calculated into net income
Pets - food/vaccinations comes out of $400 per month grocery
Driver's License Renewal Savings - renewal here is $12 every 10 years - comes out of $400 per month grocery
Car Tags - included w/ car tax, already saved
Car Maintenance and Repair/Tires/Battery - his is a company car and all maintenance is provided by the company, mine was bought 1 month ago w/ 5 years of bumber to bumper warranty, tires and oil changes will *eventually* make their way into ST/LT savings respectively
Car Replacement NEXT vehicle - once it is paid off the payments will be set aside for next vehicle.
Office Supplies - heheheh! i have 5 years worth, i have issues Electronic Purchases - this is pretty much a subset of DH's wishlist Tax Preparation - $60 (accountant is a friend of the family)
Haircuts - DH allowance, me: allowance (once every year or so, i'm lazy!)
Entertainment - allowance
Dining Out - allowance/$400 per month grocery
Clothes - allowance
NON-ISSUE: Paint - vinyl siding
Vacation Savings - we don't take traditional vacations, but do take a weekend here or there & usually pay for that out of allowance.
Lawn Care Savings - DH/myself do all yardwork
Petty Cash/Safe - allowance (900 per month), plus a hundred or so in cash and $1000 in overdraft protection if absolutely necessary
LT Care Insurance Mr./ Mrs. - we're both below 30 and don't currently consider this a priority
Holiday Travel - none, use company gas in company car...
Postage - none (online bill pay)
Subscriptions/Dues - none
Carpet Replacemetn - none, hardwoods
November 7th, 2006 at 06:07 pm 1162922824
November 7th, 2006 at 06:13 pm 1162923192
and a patridge in a pear tree
wow, apparently i do remember everything DH says he wants!! that is so sad...
November 7th, 2006 at 06:23 pm 1162923838
and a patridge in a pear tree
Woah woah woah!
He wants a partridge in his pear tree? Because if it wasn't for that, I can understand everything else.
I'm kidding. Yeah, that sounds about right with my friends too. And I admit, I wanted a bunch of stuff when I was young too. Oh, and I still want to go on a luxury cruise someday... or perhaps go to Thailand just to stay at the hotel Burirasa (http://burirasa.com/home.html). Unfortunately, I'd have to *gulp* find someone to go with me someday. It would suck to do something like that without someone to share it with.
But that's still light years away for me to even remotely worry about. Plus, it's off-topic. On topic, I honestly do believe that the only way he will understand is for him to pay for something by himself. For example, if he ever gets a motorcycle, only he should be paying it, and if he can't keep up the payment, then he would understand why it's so important to be financially responsible. Heck, I didn't learned until it happened to me the hard way....
But again, that's just my opinion. I also don't want to be responsible for anyone else's discord at home, so do what you feel is best.
November 7th, 2006 at 06:24 pm 1162923874
The agreement we came to is, he pays me a weekly rent, which is part of my income, but I don't rely on it. I only rely on what I make for my debt/saving calculations. Anything I get from DH is just extra, but somehow finds a place.
We don't fight about money at all. He knows what his obligations are. If he doesn't take care of them, then it is his fault. He does know about the house finances, just in case something happens.
My only complaint is I don't think he is saving enough for retirement, actually, I know he isn't, so I am pushing him to open an IRA, or an ING account, or something. I did tell him not to rely on just me for our retirement, he needs to pitch in.
It has worked well for 6 years.
November 7th, 2006 at 06:26 pm 1162923979
Good luck with your husband!
November 7th, 2006 at 06:28 pm 1162924127
Just sosyaknow, we have LT savings and ST savings as well and that's in addition to those things listed above! I got tired of getting caught w/me ol' knickers down!
I'd say that one of the problems then is the things YOU are seeing as being covered by the EF - he just isn't catching onto!
November 7th, 2006 at 06:42 pm 1162924963
I think the reason why is because the spouse that doesn't have to worry about money begins to lose perspective of where they stand financially. Worse yet, they also forget what can happen when debts start to avalanche out of control.
I think that's what happened to my ex.... She forgot what that's like, whereas I was only too-aware.
Sure, there are couples out there that operate just fine that way, and more power to them. So, I always throw that idea out there for people to weigh.
Having said that, and regardless of what arrangement is, the other spouse will just have to be onboard one way or another. You know, even if they don't end up managing the money, they still need to understand what they're up against and why things are the way they are right now. Sometimes, especially with us guys, the best way to learn is to do it the hard way....
But that's just my personal opinion on that.
November 7th, 2006 at 07:06 pm 1162926361
Kashi: glad you liked the spreadsheet! don't feel bad, b/c my networth is negative too (that's why it's red). i'm calling it motivation...
campfrugal: DH and i did the separate finances for a brief time a bout 2 years ago. he couldn't keep up, pay his bills, or his portion of living expenses. the only reason i'm considering going that route again is b/c he just doesn't seem to 'get' why i want to save. at the same time, i don't want to carry him thru retirement either if he doesn't save enough on his own.
Lux: i want 2.5 acres!!! now, though, i am downtown on 0.2 acres, the bulk of which is covered by a 1700 sf 2 story house! not to mention there is no grass, just a few weeds, so i could probably handle everything with a pair of scissors! *snort* of course, we do have a lawn mower and weedwacker (mower = free, DH wanted the weedwacker), and both are in storage...
November 7th, 2006 at 07:10 pm 1162926659
November 7th, 2006 at 11:59 pm 1162943956
I wish I had a simple solution for you! It is just one of those things where you'll get a lot of advice but in the end it will come down to some sort of compromise between the two fo you! Please don't end up arguing over money all the time I can tel you from experience that bites!
Selfish with sharing you and money is a whole other ball of wax! The "V' word and the term "OUR" money going over like a turd in a punchbowl may be indicative of things far beyond budgeting issues!
Sometimes a third party(neutral) financial advisor and/or seeing a counselor can smoothout other issues along with the money! Sometimes people have other issues and the money is just symptomatic of something else! Just a thought and I hope I did not overstep!
November 8th, 2006 at 01:07 am 1162948035
Actually, according to the currency conversion, the stay should come out to roughly $150 or so per night! Not bad for a beautiful, exotic hotel in a faraway land! The air fare will probably be the killer though.
Price is right though. I am rather opinionated with this subject, and yes, in the end it's going to have to be some kind of compromise that the two of you will have to work out somehow. All this will most likely be based on what kind of personalities you are.
Personally, I am rather uncompromising. But then, since I AM single, I don't have to be. So, my "advices" probably aren't entirely realstic for your situation. Well, whatever the answer may be, I know you are more than capable of finding it and implementing it.
November 8th, 2006 at 03:41 pm 1163000512
Also, I have this feeling deep down he is worried he won't ever get anything he wants. So he needs to know he can have some things from time to time, while be responsible at paying back debt too. What can you do to let him know that his wants will be taken care of? He is probably the one to answer the question...because only he knows for sure.
November 8th, 2006 at 06:03 pm 1163008995
I have to admit that I haven't had the courage to read every one's reply to you.
I'm also the one taking care of the finances in our house. My husband gives me what I need for me to pay our bills (which includes $$ to put away) and whatever's left over is for him. I am (sorta) lucky that he's not a technology freak, or has no expensive hobby though. He's also going to get a bigger disability from the VA and I asked him to give me 1/2 of whatever extra money he gets, which he agreed to. Then again, his claim might get denied, so it could be 0!